According to recent figures, women comprise one-fourth of the CFP certificant population. Yet despite their minority status, women’s experiences in financial planning may be more similar to their male counterparts than different, says the panel we gathered. We spoke to Susan Burns, CFP, president, Snug Harbor Financial Planning Inc., Marshfield, Massachusetts; Mimi N. Hackley, CFP, director of financial planning, Sharkey, Howes & Javer Inc., Denver, Colorado; Kyra Hollowell Morris, CFP, EA, president, Morris Financial Concepts Inc., Charleston, South Carolina; and Peggy Ruhlin, CFP, CPA/PFS, principal, Budros & Ruhlin Inc., Columbus, Ohio.
JFP: Women claim 25 percent of the CFP certificant pie. Should it be more?
Mimi Hackley: I think women are a natural fit for the financial planning profession. They have every chance of being as successful as men, if not more so. I haven’t seen the glass ceiling that women often talk about in other fields, so I suspect that the answer to your question is a resounding yes. Am I right?
Peggy Ruhlin: Yes.
Susan Burns: Definitely.
Kyra Morris: Women and financial planning are a natural fit. Women tend to look at financial planning holistically and take into account the personal considerations, as well as the mechanics of financial planning. The demand side, though, is an issue. Where are the jobs?
JFP: You raise a good point. Before we get into that, how did all of you enter the profession?
Hackley: I have a master’s degree in public health and had a good job coordinating multi-center clinical trials of new medicines and other treatments. The difficulty, though, was that every promotion moved me further and further away from working directly with people.
At the same time, my friends and family have always gravitated to me for financial advice. I guess I have a knack for it. My mother and a good friend, in particular, told me that I was in the wrong field and should become a financial planner. I didn’t know they were right until I got into the course work. I realized that the better I did at financial planning, the more people I would get to work with and help, which was thrilling to me. I became a financial planner in 1998 and got my CFP certification in 2000.
Ruhlin: I came to financial planning from the accounting world. My former partner and I started a small accounting firm when we were in our twenties. Most of our clients were the same age, and as they got established and needed more financial advice, we would refer them to a financial planner in town. Finally, my former partner decided that we shouldn’t be referring all this business and sent away to the College for Financial Planning for information about the CFP designation. He never opened his packet, but I opened mine and thought, “Where has this been all my life? This is what I really want to do.”
A couple of years later, the financial planner who got our referrals (he happened to be Jim Budros) called to say that his business was booming and would I ever in my wildest dreams consider leaving the accounting world and coming to the financial planning world at his company. Six months later I was there. That was in 1987.
Susan Burns: I started in the mutual funds industry and was there for more than 19 years. I spent a lot of time coaching and mentoring the people who worked for me, and as a natural extension of that, they started asking me financial-type questions. I was getting similar requests from friends and family. I had always been interested in finances, so I decided to go back to school at night at Boston University and take the CFP exam. The next step was to start my own practice, and in 1997, I created Snug Harbor Financial Planning. It’s given me the opportunity to help people understand their finances, plan for their futures, and make a difference in their lives.
Kyra Morris: I got started completely by accident. I have degrees in chemistry and engineering, and worked in that field for six years until 1982, when my first child was born and my husband was transferred to Charleston.
When I wanted to go back to work part-time, engineering didn’t seem to be a good option, so I decided to try something completely different. I applied for a job as an investment manager with a local stockbrokerage firm without knowing the difference between a stock and a bond. I soon found out that I loved what I was learning, but I wasn’t comfortable in the brokerage environment.
That summer, I read an article about CFP professionals and decided to call a practitioner whose name was in the phone book. He agreed to hire me because I could run his new computer. I worked for him for two years, got my CFP certification in 1986, and started my own business in 1987.
JFP: Earlier, Kyra, you mentioned the supply of firms as a barrier to women. Can you expand on that?
Morris: Many prospective financial planners, both men and women, want to do real planning. Unfortunately, there is not enough supply, in terms of firms, to meet that demand.
Ruhlin: I’ve known young women who have gone to work for a couple of the larger firms and became turned off by the sales aspect of it. They felt like the job was all about selling product, versus doing financial planning. I’m sure that a lot of young men are turned off by that as well.
Burns: There aren’t that many salaried positions out there. The other alternative is to start your own firm, but then you become an entrepreneur first and foremost. You have to do all the marketing and other things that aren’t necessarily tied to working directly with clients.
JFP: It’s the whole idea of having a career path for new financial planners, whether man or woman. What’s the solution?
Hackley: People I hear from, who are considering the field or are in the process of entering it, don’t talk about barriers. They’re just looking for ways to get started, because they’re going to do it anyhow. I always suggest that they join the Financial Planning Association. It’s a real strong way for people to get connected, whether it’s to find a position or a study group that discusses how to start a business.
Morris: FPA also is working hard to crank out some wonderful programs around internships, which may help encourage more firms to offer them.
The lack of supply of firms does create a barrier, though. I’ve worked with FPA’s Residency Program since 1998, and we continue to stay in touch with people who have gone through the program. The issues around finding a job or going out on their own are difficult. If they start their own business, they face some tough economic realities. We’re seeing more successes than failures, but it’s not necessarily easy. Again, that applies to both men and women.
JFP: Have you observed changes over the years with regard to women in financial planning?
Morris: There are more women entering financial planning. I’ve watched that through the Residency Program.
Hackley: I’ve noticed women taking more leadership roles in financial planning organizations such as FPA. Also, I sense that the influx of women is contributing to the whole life planning approach that has come into popularity. Does anyone else get that sense?
Ruhlin: You would think it’s a logical connection, but when you look at the leaders in that arena, they’re mostly men. Maybe it’s because 75 percent of all financial planners are men, but it’s people like George Kinder and Roy Diliberto who are quoted in the periodicals.
Hackley: They may be getting more press for it, but a lot of women tell me that they’ve being doing it for years. On another tack, have you noticed more women becoming the financial spouse in a couple’s situation?
Morris: Not as an absolute. I often see the woman writing the checks and paying the bills, but I have not yet seen women become more the person who is really controlling the investments and directing the financial issues. However, I have seen more women wanting to understand finances, and not get stuck in a catastrophe through either divorce or widowhood.
Ruhlin: We’ve always had a few clients where the wife was the primary financial decision-maker in the family, but I haven’t seen an increase in the number of wives taking on that role.
Hackley: In about 40 percent of the couples I see as clients, the woman is the financial spouse, which is a surprise to me. I work with a lot of dentists and doctors, young and old alike, and it’s been happening across the board.
JFP: Have there been changes in terms of clients’ willingness to work with a female planner?
Burns: Actually, I’ve had experiences where the husband was primarily responsible for the finances, and yet one of the purposes of coming to me was because I am a woman, and the husband thought I could help raise the wife’s awareness about finances.
Ruhlin: I’ve seen that happen, too. One day the husband wakes up and realizes he’s not going to be around forever. He hasn’t prepared his wife to manage the finances, wants to do something about it, and feels that she’ll be more comfortable with a woman, or with a man-woman team.
I have male partners, and when a client works with our firm, they work with all of us. That’s been a win-win proposition for everyone. The wife may feel more comfortable knowing that a woman is on the financial planning team, while the husband might feel more comfortable knowing there’s an alpha male in there somewhere, too. We can address both subconscious thoughts, as it were, by having a male-female team.
Morris: I’ve never had a male partner, but I’ve found that my engineering background has gained some respect from the male side. I grew up in a male world and can handle the engineering-type approach, or maybe there’s an alpha-male part of me, too. I have not found that being a female has made it tougher for me than being a male, even in Charleston, which is a very good-old-boy society.
Of course, I think about women who have come before me, and realize that perhaps they broke some ground for us.
Ruhlin: There is one interesting thing I’ve observed. I get a lot of referrals from other professionals, but in the 20 years that I’ve been doing this, no attorney has ever referred a male client to me. They have only referred females. If it’s a male client, they refer him to Jim.
JFP: Do you bring unique strengths to the profession as a woman? Conversely, are there special challenges you or other women face?
Ruhlin: I don’t think I bring any unique strengths as a woman to the job. So often, people think that in a male-female partnership, the female is the one who is more tied with the emotional needs of the client, and the male is the more analytical one. In my partnership, it’s the opposite. Jim is the nurturing one and I’m the analytical one.
We have a lot of clients where both the husband and wife are big earners. The wives may think that I’ll better understand what they are going through because I am a mother and a wife and have this big-time career.
Burns: Like Peggy, I really don’t think that my strengths are specific to being a woman or a man. They are just my unique strengths. I’ve never made it an issue to be a woman, nor have I shirked from it. I’ve always wanted to be judged on my performance and ideas.
Hackley: I look at it a little differently. Women are traditionally caretakers, and I am certainly and absolutely a caretaker. That desire to take care of people helps me listen and address difficult topics, such as bringing up a prenuptial agreement. Men in my study group ask how I do those things so easily. Maybe it’s because I’m a woman and can approach the topic from that perspective.
In terms of challenges, it’s not being a woman. It’s being the new kid on the block.
Morris: I’m leaning more toward Mimi. Even though I am very analytical and approach my financial planning practice using my engineering and scientific background, I have found that my feminine side gives me the ability to look at the whole picture.
Financial planning is not just about running the numbers. It’s being aware of family and values and all of those other things. The inherent desire to nurture or be a caretaker makes it easier to bring up the tough stuff, whether that’s looking at a prenuptial agreement or spelling out to somebody that they are heading for financial disaster unless some changes are made. Perhaps I’m stronger in those areas because of my female side.
In terms of barriers, early in my practice when my children were younger, I felt like I was fighting the perception that I was a part-time professional, even though I worked 40 hours a week. I perceived that partly in some clients, and partly in other professionals in terms of sending me referrals. I don’t sense that as much now, perhaps because my practice has grown and the community perceives it as strong.
JFP: Raising a family while practicing financial planning has been mentioned a couple of times. Is there anything unique to the profession in that regard?
Ruhlin: I don’t think there’s any difference in raising a family and practicing financial planning than being a teacher, a doctor, or whatever. Except that I’m the financial spouse in our family.
Morris: That’s the place I came back to. Women juggle business and family no matter what profession they are in, but being the financial spouse perhaps makes the juggling a little easier. I know what’s going on financially and where I can be flexible in my business.
JFP: What’s been your biggest surprise from the standpoint of being a woman in the profession?
Hackley: I’ve been surprised by how many women want to work with a female planner. Recently, I was speaking to 13 men about financial planning and pension issues. In addressing single versus joint life options, I suggested that the decision is not always a financial one, and that the spouse should provide input on how they would feel about various scenarios. Several men, three in particular, made appointments with our firm because of that comment and brought their wives with them.
Later I heard from all three wives about how glad they were that their husbands found a female planner. When I asked why, they described it in much the same way as why they would rather work with a female doctor—that there were things that they would rather discuss with a woman.
Burns: I think it’s natural to expect that women might prefer to work with a woman planner, in much the same way that they might feel more comfortable talking to a woman doctor. What really surprises me is how many husbands choose me as their planner because they think their wives will feel more comfortable with a woman. I was surprised to learn that men were sensitive to that idea.
The other surprise has been in dealing with female professionals. When I became president-elect of FPA of Massachusetts, I was amazed at how many women came up to me and expressed so much pride that a woman was taking over that primary leadership role. For me, getting that position was not about being a woman, but it seemed to have a positive impact on my female colleagues.
Ruhlin: I’m surprised, in a way, that some things never change. I was at an industry conference recently and sat next to a man at lunch. We introduced ourselves, started talking about our firms, and he asked what my position was. I told him that I was a principal of the firm. He sat quietly for a minute and then said, “Well, if you’re a principal, does that mean you work with your husband?” It made me think that he had been living under a rock for the past 25 years!
JFP: How do you handle that?
Ruhlin: I just laugh.
JFP: What about acceptance in general among your male peers?
Morris: My first surprise in entering this profession was the acceptance of women. I’ve always felt very accepted, and I’ve grown up in the profession with women leaders to look up to. When I was first getting involved nationally, for example, Eileen Sharkey was just stepping down as a leader of the Institute of Certified Financial Planners. I saw Peggy and Judy Lau in leadership roles. I’ve always thought that this is a very powerful profession for women.
Ruhlin: I’ll echo that. When I first became interested in financial planning back in the early 1980s, I attended a local meeting here in Columbus. The guest speaker was Alexandra Armstrong, the incoming president of the old International Association for Financial Planning. I thought to myself, “There’s never been a woman anything in the CPA ruling world, and here they have elected a woman to be the leader of this organization. What a wonderful profession this must be!”
Alexandra was an inspiration to me. Maybe we can learn from that and attract more women to this profession by being out there in leadership roles and showing them what a great profession it is for a woman.
JFP: Any final tips for women entering the profession?
Burns: Get involved with FPA. If you don’t, it’s almost like falling off a cliff. Part of that is because there isn’t a real good career path in place, unless someone goes into one of the brokerage firms or insurance companies. The bridge is FPA.
When I look at people four or five years after they enter the profession, it’s the ones in FPA who are still practicing and thriving. FPA has given them the support they need in terms of networking and mentoring.
Hackley: Within FPA, join a study group. They’re great for talking about practice management and keeping your knowledge sharp. New practitioners also seem to get the most out of FPA’s Residency Program and Bridge the Gap. That applies to both men and women.
Another idea relates to my own experience. When I first entered the field, I had a bit of a warped view on the way to practice financial planning—that the only way to get in was through a big company like Merrill Lynch or American Express. Instead of going that route, I took some time to do informational interviews with all kinds of practitioners, and realized that there is a much broader range of financial planning practices out there. For example, there’s a whole continuum of commission-based practices on one end, to fee-only on the other end, and everything in between.
Those interviews were very useful for me and non-threatening for the people I talked to because I wasn’t asking for a job. I was just asking to pick their brains.
Ruhlin: I would not be where I am today without the experiences I had in FPA—both in the local chapter and on a national level. It’s made a world of difference for me.
The other thing I would add is to start the CFP educational program as soon as possible. Don’t wait until you land the perfect position. Take the courses, sit for the exam and get your CFP certification.
Burns: And don’t wait to join FPA until you finish the CFP certification program. Start developing connections while you are still a student.
Morris: Two positions in my local chapter really helped me build my firm: program director and PR director.
As PR director, I could approach local journalists from the point of view of a nonprofit professional association. They would quote me because they weren’t promoting my firm. But my name got out there and I’m used as a media resource to this day.
As program director, I could approach other professionals in the community. Again, I was representing a professional association, not trying to sell my firm. But it provided an instant perception that I was a professional and involved in the community.
One final thought: As Mimi said, you will find a continuum of firms in terms of their compensation structure, but the bottom line is to learn the value system of the firm. The compensation structure may not be what you consider the ideal, but if the firm has the same values as you do in terms of family, concern for clients, and all the rest, it may still be a good fit. Look for a foundation of shared values.
Catherine Newton is a freelance writer in Denver, Colorado.
